Saturday, February 17, 2007

Facing Mecca

By Uri Avnery

MUST A Native-American recognize the right of the United States of America to exist?

Interesting question. The USA was established by Europeans who invaded a continent that did not belong to them, eradicated most of the indigenous population (the "Red Indians") in a prolonged campaign of genocide, and exploited the labor of millions of slaves who had been brutally torn from their lives in Africa. Not to mention what is going on today. Must a Native-American - or indeed anybody at all - recognize the right of such a state to exist?

But nobody raises the question. The United States does not give a damn if anybody recognizes its right to exist or not. It does not demand this from the countries with which it maintains relations.

Why? Because this is a ridiculous demand to start with.

OK, the United States is older than the State of Israel, as well as bigger and more powerful. But countries that are not super-powers do not demand this either. India, for example, is not expected to recognize Pakistan's "right to exist", in spite of the fact that Pakistan was established at the same time as Israel, and - like Israel - on an ethnic/religious basis.

SO WHY is Hamas required to "recognize Israel's right to exist"?
Please read on here...


At 8:50 PM, Blogger BaconEating AtheistJew said...

If the Indians in the US had a stated goal of wiping out America, you would see all kinds of requirements that they would have to comply with.

At 8:57 PM, Blogger Gert said...

Where does it say that "the Indians in the US have a stated goal of wiping out America"?

Sorry, I don't get your comment...

At 9:09 PM, Blogger BaconEating AtheistJew said...

They don't. But the Palestinians have a stated goal of wiping out Israel.

You see, it is historical. It is one thing for the Palestinians not to recognize Israel's right to exist, but they made it an issue by acting on it, that is why Israel is within its rights to demand they recognize Israel's right to exist.

It is one thing for an Indian or group of Indians to say they don't recognize the USA's right to exist....but if they acted on it, and collectively supported suicide bombings and missile attacks...the USA would demand the same thing from the Indians in order to attempt to achieve peace.

At 9:15 PM, Blogger BaconEating AtheistJew said...

I also think that the author of the article makes some false assumptions regarding the Indians. They say that the Euros took land that didn't belong to them...prove it belonged to the Indians.

Also, prove it in light of the fact that European Cro Magnums crossed the Atlantic and were the first humans in North America. They were likely wiped out by the "Native Indians" when they came here over the Bering Strait.

The history of the worlds boundaries is "might makes right until sovereign" No matter how brutal that sounds...I include negotiations, lobbying and/or war in my might makes right statement.

That is how the Muslim Arabs acquired most of the middle east by the way.

But since Israel was one of the last countries to become sovereign, it is still in the limelight for some reason.

At 9:19 PM, Blogger Gert said...

To your second comment:

Well, that's your opinion. I would criticise Avnery's piece on completely different grounds but I largely agree with him that Israel's approach to peace is largely one of "yes but no". In my interpretation the Israelis are simply trying to get as much out of a possible deal as possible, by endlessly delaying things in find obstacles even where there are non.

Even the recognition of Israel would not stop some Palestinians to work for the replacement of Israel with an Islamic state. There are always extremists, and believe me, there plenty nutjobs on the other side of the fence too.

At 9:25 PM, Blogger Gert said...

To your third comment:

I accept the points you make about the creation of Nation States, in the modern sense of the word. Unfortunately, some Israelis will also use that kind of logic to support the creation of Eretz Yisrael from to sea to the Jordan AND to the Litani (and beyond).

The occupation of the territories only came about in 1967, resulted from a war that wasn't started by Israel and wasn't exactly ordained by YHWH either. I don't think Israel really planned to stay that long but things went wrong. Now a sizeable minority (or a small majority?) feel these lands are to be Israel's. Having your cake and eat it...

At 10:23 PM, Blogger BaconEating AtheistJew said...

Gert, you should check this out.

At 3:48 PM, Blogger Mad Zionist said...

Gert, we are in agreement that it is absolute foolishness to expect the moslems and the PLO to accept and recognize the Jewish State. They are arabs, after all, and would logically be expected to loathe the existence of the state of Israel in place of a moslem nation that reflects their religious and cultural values.

All of the uitopian dreamers that are unrealistically wishing the moslems will sell out their core beliefs for welfare checks and a few token bits of land are fools. The arabs want all of the land they are convinced rightfully belongs to them but was taken away in a series of humiliating defeats.

We should understand the arab cannot tolerate Hatikvah as his national anthem, cannot stomach the Mogan David as his national flag, and despises the fact that hebrew, not arabic, is the national language.

We can't fix the problem until we recognize what the truth about the problem really is. If there is to be a Jewish State than the moslems need to be removed and sent mercifully to an arab state that will give them a home that actually represents the language, religion, culture and values they themselves possess.

At 4:26 PM, Blogger Gert said...


Call me thick-as-two-short-planks again, but why is this relevant?

At 4:54 PM, Blogger Gert said...


Having said that, that is one hell of a piece of anti-Semitism you've unearthed there (but I don't quite see what it has to do with Avnery's piece)! I wouldn't easily expect something like that from an American source.

I would give you one word of advice though: better to keep the name-calling out of it: they only feel there stereotypes are being confirmed. Don't stoop to their level...

At 5:43 AM, Blogger BaconEating AtheistJew said...

I never said it was relevant to this article.

And secondly, I don't care what they "think."


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