Bil'in Habibti
Watch, among other things, the 'security wall/fence' snake deep into Palestinian territory:
More useful info on this from Adam Horowitz.
Seth Freedman on Nilin in CiF:
After four days of curfew, the village of Nilin is not a pretty sight. Torched cars lie strewn on the sides of the road, bedroom windows sport gaping bullet holes, and debris is scattered the length and breadth of the town: evidence of the brutality meted out indiscriminately by the army against the locals.
As I followed the trail of destruction, the tales of woe grew ever darker and ever more indicting of the Israel Defence Force's cruelty. "Look what they did to me!" screamed an elderly grandmother, hoisting up her robes to display the raw wounds inflicted by soldiers who had thrown her against a stone wall during a raid. She began sobbing as she recounted the events of earlier in the week, utterly bewildered as to how she had come to be mistreated so.
Upstairs, her middle-aged son clutched his two children to his side as he recounted the night the troops burst into his home.
"Imagine what it does to your son and daughter when they see you beaten by a soldier," Hillal Khawaja said flatly. He showed us the wreckage of a room that had borne the brunt of the military's ire: computers ripped from their sockets, beds smashed and furniture overturned, nothing had been spared the wrath of the marauding infantry.
Further up the road, a family pointed out the scorched linoleum in their kitchen and the shattered glass of their windows, the result of a random bullet and grenade attack launched by passing jeeps. "We were inches away from where the shells landed," said the father of the house, as his children looked on timidly. "If we had been any closer, we'd have had no chance."
Three residents weren't so lucky. The trio were hit with live fire during the incursion. All are still in hospital with the bullets still lodged inside them; one entered a man's spine, and it will be a miracle if he can walk again after surgery.
The psychological trauma is just as bad, with parents talking of children terrified to sleep in their family homes, convinced that the soldiers will come back, and turn their lives into teargas- and bullet-filled nightmares once more. However, one local activist, Hindi Mesleh, says: "Israel has occupied us for 60 years, and still we resist; four days more isn't going to stop us." He has been instrumental in the campaign against the construction of the separation wall through Nilin's land, and scoffs at the idea that the army can ever bring a halt to the villagers' protests.
More here.
posted by Gert @ 3:41 PM
39 comments
39 Comments:
I shut off comments at my District 9 and Defense Guard posts. I defended you against the antisemitism charge.
Obama and Hillary never say a word about the fence. I remember Hillary celebrated it.
Thanks...
Hillary was also (up to recently, I believe) strongly in favour of an undivided J'sem.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Actually, I never made any "antisemitism charge" at all; I just pointed out that many others have made such a charge.
Does accuracy and the truth mean anything on the left at all?
And from that silence, we can safely assume the answer is no: Accuracy, integrity and the truth are not of any interest at all to you and those on the left.
Never let the truth get in the way of a good smear / victim story / PC fantasy right?
I think it was all carefully explained to you as to why I brought up the accusations of anti-Semitism against you every time you decided to personally smear me.
Did you really not see the irony of someone is often accused of anti-Semitism but denies that charge accusing someone else of anti-Semitism that also denies that charge? I guess not.
Ssshhhhh, quiet Sent, we're forming another PC committee here... ;-)
Victim stories???? That's more your kettle of fish...
All very clever I'm sure but not an answer to the question about your honesty and integrity is it?
Did I accuse you of anti-Semitism? If you say yes, then where? If not then why didn't you set Renegade Eyes straight? And why is he saying I did in the first place?
And where are these victim stories of mine?
Come, get a little bit of integrity into your life, you will feel better for it.
Just a technical comment about the title of the post: It should be Bil'in Habibti, not Bil'in in Habibti.
Hey, Sentinal, how come your blog is for invited readers only? Is it now reserved only for other people who share your hate for Muslims and who believe in "Israel controls the United States"-type conspiracy theories?
This comment has been removed by the author.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hey, Sentinal, how come your blog is for invited readers only?"
Not that it's any of your business but it's offline for a bit while I do something with it, why? Do you want an invite? And who are you anyway? Aside from Gerts only commenter left? Is this your attempt at being his knight in shining armour? How sweet. Its always touching to see two men bond so closely over the Internet but it really wouldn't be necessary if Gert just answered those simple questions; but then he cant honestly do that...
As for the rest of your comment, I bet its sounds really clever and damning when you read it back to yourself, such a biting put down - but unfortunately, as always, facts and reality interfere with that left wing moral high ground:
"who share your hate for Muslims"
Not hate but serious concern at their gross criminality, particularly in rape; their willingness to blow themselves up in my capital city and their aggressive demands for more and more Islamic control in Europe.
But lets just deal with their criminality for now, eh?
Or perhaps no one should even mention it? You know, keep it secret?
In Denmark it has been revealed that muslims committed 68% of all rapes, and it was revealed that non-whites (muslims, the biggest non-white group) were over-represented in all crime by an average of 46% and in Copenhagen 47.5% of prisoners on remand for serious crimes were non-white. In Norway it was found that two out of three charged with rape in Oslo were of a "non-western" background (Again, muslims), whilst in Sweden it as found that a rapist was four times more likely to have been born abroad – with Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominating the group of rape suspects and that non-whites were responsible for 25% of all crime in Sweden A survey in Australia found that in Melbourne magistrate’s courts, offenders from the horn of Africa and the Middle East (Somali, Sudanese and Arab muslims) were 20 times the representative proportion of their population…
http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/27877.html
http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/28210.html
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article327666.ab
http://www.thelocal.se/2683/20051214/
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,21166482-661,00.html
In the UK, just for one example, we have this:
"A hidden world in which Asian men “groom” young white girls for sex has been exposed with the jailing yesterday of two men for child-abuse offences
The trial came amid growing concern at the attitudes of some Asian men towards white girls which campaigners for women claim few people wish to address.
Parents have complained that in parts of the country with large Asian communities white girls as young as 12 are being targeted for sex by older Asian men yet the authorities are unwilling to act because of fears of being labelled racist.
Ann Cryer, a Labour member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, has been at the forefront of attempting to tackle the problem after receiving complaints from mothers in her constituency about young Asian men targeting their under-age daughters.
Although campaigners claim that hundreds of young girls are already being passed around men within the Asian community for sex, she said that attempts to raise the problem with community leaders had met with little success, with most of them being in a state of denial about it.
However, Ms Cryer added: “I think there is a problem with the view Asian men generally have about white women. Their view about white women is generally fairly low. They do not seem to understand that there are white girls as moral and as good as Asian girls.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2237940
"and who believe in "Israel controls the United States"-type conspiracy theories?"
When it comes from the horses mouth, it not really a theory is it? Its more of a stated fact...
"The Obama Administration will put forth new peace initiatives only if Israel wants it to, said Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman in his first comprehensive interview on foreign policy since taking office.
"Believe me, America accepts all our decisions," Lieberman told the Russian daily Moskovskiy Komosolets.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1080097.html
"At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turned toward Peres,
saying "every time we do something you tell me Americans will do
this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear,
don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish
people control America, and the Americans know it."
http://www.wrmea.com/html/newsitem_s.htm
But aside from these confessions, we have plenty of evidence of AIPACs influence and massive monetary 'contributions' to presidential candidates, as well as the immense influence of Zionist groups like JINSA, JCPA and the rest on the US, as well as the long list of Zionists behind the PNAC and then the actual invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
http://truthatsentinel.blogspot.com/2009/04/usreal-foreign-control-of-us.html
Be back online soon for you to see some truth...)
Sent:
[...] but then he cant honestly do that...
You didn't accuse me of anti-Semitism (but it did look like that) and I didn't say you did. You brought it up at Renegade Eye's blog , for no reason other than to try and score a point. Fine, now kindly move on.
You're not, perchance, 'disappearing' a number of embarrassing past posts from your blog, are you?
Emm:
Bi'lin Habibti: haste makes waste, I guess... Thanks!
It would appear we now have a 'close bond'... ("Its always touching to see two men bond so closely over the Internet [...]"). Who'd have thunk it? Maybe it's Stockholm syndrome?
Sentinal: I see you don't remember me. I commented on your blog once or twice. I think it was on a post listing Jewish Bush administration officials falsely presented by you as dual Israeli-American citizens.
Believe me, I'm no fan of Jihadists and people who try to replace democracy with theocracy. I don't ignore the many problems with Muslim communities in Europe, either. There's a huge difference, though, between that and presenting all Muslims (or even most of them) as homicidal terrorist rapists. You could use criminal statistics from the United States to claim most African Americans are violent criminals, just like you do with Muslims.
I couldn't find a credible source that repeats the Sharon quote, so I assume it's false. As for Lieberman, he's an over-confident jackass. What he said isn't true.
Gert: Which one of us is the kidnapper and which the hostage? :)
Gert,
"You didn't accuse me of anti-Semitism"
Thank you for telling the truth (eventually.) But then, why didn't you put Renegade Eye straight above, instead of thanking him? What was that all about.
"but it did look like that"
How could it when I specifically said, at least twice, that I was not accusing you of it?
"You brought it up at Renegade Eye's blog , for no reason other than to try and score a point."
No at all; it was, as you well know, in response to your argumentum ad hominem and to demonstrate the irony and absurdity of such mud slinging, especially from someone who is often accused of anti-Semitism but denies that charge then accusing someone else of anti-Semitism that also denies that charge.
That was why.
"Fine, now kindly move on."
Now that you have accepted the truth (albeit with an odd caveat) no problem.
"You're not, perchance, 'disappearing' a number of embarrassing past posts from your blog, are you?"
Like what exactly? Like posts that contain facts above that I am clearly not embarrassed about? Truths that no one has ever been able to refute, only able to use argumentum ad honimen?
You do make me laugh Gert, I am not at all embarrassed by telling the truth that the left wish wasn't so and people wouldn't say.
And why would I need to pull the blog offline to delete posts?!
"It would appear we now have a 'close bond'... ("Its always touching to see two men bond so closely over the Internet [...]"). Who'd have thunk it? Maybe it's Stockholm syndrome?"
Yes, it is always touching to see a man on the Internet rushing to 'defend the honour' of another man he met on the Internet, How sweet. How very modern.
emmanual,
"I see you don't remember me. I commented on your blog once or twice."
Really? Then in that case you must forgive me for not remembering you.
"I think it was on a post listing Jewish Bush administration officials falsely presented by you as dual Israeli-American citizens"
Thats a lot of detail for something you only think may have happened; and I doubt very much your comment was one of evidence, whatever it related to.
But when the blog is back online feel free to point it out.
"Believe me, I'm no fan of Jihadists and people who try to replace democracy with theocracy"
I'll bet. But seeing as my country didn't arise by supplanting muslims in their homelands in the first place we are in a completely different situation.
"There's a huge difference, though, between that and presenting all Muslims (or even most of them) as homicidal terrorist rapists."
Again, another silly student put-down without any base whatsoever; I present the truth, and as you can see, the truth is that the muslims are behind the majority of rapes in Denmark (as well crime), and a significant proportion in other countries - when I bring the blog back up feel free to try and back up your lie that I have ever said "all Muslims (or even most of them) as homicidal terrorist rapists."
"You could use criminal statistics from the United States to claim most African Americans are violent criminals, just like you do with Muslims."
I could indeed - again without your own insertion of most / all - instead, as I am British, I will use criminal statistics from Britain instead.
And you know how I am able to do so? Because they are true...
In the UK it was leaked that 73% of those charged with knife crime were non-white (whist the victims made up the largest group) Over 70 per cent of London’s gun suspects were black, as were 50 per cent of the victims white. In 80% of gang rape cases, the defendants were black. There are five times more young blacks in prison then whites.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036833/Over-half-young-knife-suspects-black-Scotland-Yard-figures-reveal.html
http://www.itv.com/PressCentre/InTheLineOfFire/Ep1Wk07/default.html
http://www.newstatesman.com/199811200011
http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/black_crime.shtml
"I couldn't find a credible source that repeats the Sharon quote, so I assume it's false."
Of course you do.
"As for Lieberman, he's an over-confident jackass. What he said isn't true."
Ha ha ha. I'll bet you didn't like that one.
But all in all, I'll take the publicly proclaimed word of the Isreali Foreign Minister over an insignificant student.
And interestingly, no one in the US state department has ever even commented on such an outrageous claim, let alone denied it.
Come friend, why not just admit you and you silly little put downs were wrong, and get a bit of integrity into you life too?
Emm:
"Gert: Which one of us is the kidnapper and which the hostage?"
Apparently the lines get blurred after a while...
"You could use criminal statistics from the United States to claim most African Americans are violent criminals"
He's already done that, at least with Black British people. It's a tactic: want to 'prove' such or such a country is racist? Google for 'such and such a country racism' and find hundreds, if not thousands of links. Take a large pick and the job's 'done'... Not quite...
Sentinel:
Your assertion that Emmanuel and me are somehow 'close' is quite absurd: you're over-reaching again.
Emm is a Zionist Israeli, somewhat left-leaning (one of the three left!), I've always been a critic of Israel and cranked it up a notch after the war on Gaza. That newfound position (for want of a better term) hasn't exactly caused us to cosy up. But we've always managed to keep things respectful and civic. And we don't shy away from the fact there are things we do agree on either...
As regards the Sharon quote. I don't know what the truth is here. But I will say this, no matter how much I dislike Sharon, it's a fact that a number of quotes have been attributed to him completely falsely.
I too got 'caught out' once (but I was in good faith) when a particularly nasty piece of text was attributed to him (and I printed it too). It turned out the quote had been lifted from an Amos Oz book. In it, the protagonist named 'Z' plays the part of a deeply racist arch-Zionist and makes all kind of OTT statements regarding Palestinians and Arabs. Many claim 'Z' was modeled on Sharon. And so, some lifted passages from 'Z's fictitious tirades and claimed Sharon had said these things. But he hadn't.
The whole thing does raise one serious question: why did Amos Oz, himself a Zionist, write such a fictitious interview with an arch-Zionist who doesn't object to being called a Judeo-Nazi?
Zionist-on-Zionist smearing?
t"He's already done that, at least with Black British people. It's a tactic: want to 'prove' such or such"
Are you for real Gert? No really, are you?
Its always the same old story on the left: Try and deny facts that don't fit the PC agenda / label the bearer as racist / or even the facts themselves / deny the facts.
But the only truth here is, as always, if muslims didn't commit the lions share of rapes and crime in these countries and blacks were not responsible for the majority of the crimes described, then they wouldn't show up in these official figures (that are usual leaked rather then made available) and I wouldn't be able to link to them as evidence of my contentions.
To summarise once again: I can only do so because it is true.
And we are talking about people in Denmark that allegedly make up less then 5% of the population but commit 68% of all the rapes (and the rest) and blacks allegedly make up around 3% of the population but are up for 80% of all gang rapes, 70% of shootings and 73% of stabbings.
Can you really not see the problem here? The huge exponential problem?
"and find hundreds, if not thousands of links. Take a large pick and the job's 'done'... Not quite..."
But, as you well know, we are talking about "links" here, but official government statistics.
Big difference.
Unless you're a proper dishonest left that is.
"That newfound position (for want of a better term) hasn't exactly caused us to cosy up"
I'm not sure I want to hear about the "newfound positions" you find yourself in with men you have met online - but clearly he felt he had to rush in and 'defend your honour' even when he was totally of whack - clearly.
"As regards the Sharon quote. I don't know what the truth is here."
Well, there you go. I have seen and heard many say they had heard it live and after on the radio and that a report was pulled from several online editions of Israeli newspapers.
What isn't in doubt at all is the claim of Israel's foreign minister that the US "will put forth new peace initiatives only if Israel wants it to" and "Believe me, America accepts all our decisions" - given this - on the balance of probability - the Sharon quote seems quite credible.
Sent:
"[...] label the bearer as racist."
I've called you racist in the past because at least back then you clearly believed in racial theory and the existence of 'races'. And most believers in 'racial theory' happen (surprise, surprise!) also to believe in the superiority of their own 'race'.
"I'm not sure I want to hear about the "newfound positions" you find yourself in with men you have met online - but clearly he felt he had to rush in and 'defend your honour' even when he was totally of whack - clearly."
Honestly Sent, "men you have met online", "new positions". You're really scraping the barrel now...
Pfwoooaaarrr! What do you get up to with "men you met online" like Pagan the Imbecile? Or the White Brothers from Vanguard?
Two can play that game... yawn...
Gert: It's a real interview with an anonymous interviewee. I just re-read the relevant chapter from Amos Oz's non-fiction book to see if Z is Sharon or not, and it's hard to tell. It could just as easily be Rehavam Ze'evi or any other right-wing former trooper whose age was around 50 in 1982.
Sentinel:
as you can see, the truth is that the muslims are behind the majority of rapes in Denmark (as well crime)
[...]
try and back up your lie that I have ever said "all Muslims (or even most of them) as homicidal terrorist rapists."
See, when you say the Muslims are behind the rapes, rather than "Muslims are behind the rapes" that is an accusation against the whole group rather than individual Muslim rapists.
Emm:
The passages I was referring to (and that I quoted inadvertently at that time) were from "In the land of Israel" by Oz. But they bear an uncanny resemblance to the 'interview' I linked to above. I don't really feel much the wiser on this, TBH...
Its good to see we've made some progress, and as much as I have enjoyed educating you two a little, there are plenty more out there in need of a dose of truth and reality.
I always know when the proper dishonest lefties have run out of steam because they completely ignore the actual crux of the matter and go into argumentum ad hominem overdrive and / or desperate distractions; that's when I know my work is done.
Oh well.
(Renegade Eye's tell tale sign is to ignore the proven facts that doesn't fit into his political dream; I give him a lot of credit for never using overt argumentum ad hominem or insults, though he does engage in low level idiosyncrasies like singling me out in comments sections for commenting on things that other have started and others have commented on and saying things like: "I defended you against the antisemitism charge" when it never even happened, as well as this talking in code thing.)
"I've called you racist in the past because at least back then you clearly believed in racial theory and the existence of 'races'."
And what an absolutely bizarre thing to do, considering races are not only a pretty bloody obvious reality but well proven in science too. See the bottom of this comment yet more truth and facts then you can handle.
But that's not why you smeared me with your Marxist hate labels (labels that didn't exits until they invented them to divide people.) You did it as purely political piece of argumentum ad hominem to discredit me personally and anything I have to say, with the truth being no defence.
This little PC ritual labelling a deliberate PC device to intimidate, oppress and silence dissent and is tantamount to being a witch; any level of insult, scorn, derision, dehumanisation and attack is warranted because whoever dares to raise the subject of race and it differences is a modern witch / pariah, not really a human but a hateful foaming evil beast who needs to be suppressed by any means; normal standards of behaviour and etiquette do not apply to such an animal. And if they quote facts, it is irrelevant because the truth is irrelevant when it comes from a foaming, hateful animal.
It used to work quite well, but as anyone who has studied history at all knows, nothing lasts for ever. This PC device is on the wane now; I for one have never been cowered by it.
"And most believers in 'racial theory' happen (surprise, surprise!) also to believe in the superiority of their own 'race'."
You also smeared me a "white supremacist" when I have NEVER proclaimed any such supremacy at all. Yet another purely political piece of argumentum ad hominem to discredit me personally, without any evidence at all.
I have pointed out the differences in the races and their characteristics, but I have never said one is better then the other. I just don't think they get along too well together and all of the evidence bears that out.
Certainly, just crime wise, Europe would be a hell of lot better off without any non- European immigration; and that is just a well established fact - not even remotely racist or white supremacist.
"Honestly Sent, "men you have met online", "new positions". You're really scraping the barrel now..."
How come on, even proper dishonest lefties must have a sense of humour somehere in thier dark PC hearts.
"Pfwoooaaarrr! What do you get up to with "men you met online" like Pagan the Imbecile?"
Pagan Temple presuambly? He has never felt compelled to 'defend my honour'
"Or the White Brothers from Vanguard?"
Again pure argumentum ad hominem without a single scrap of evidence. Why? Because its not true...
emmanuel,
"See, when you say the Muslims are behind the rapes, rather than "Muslims are behind the rapes" that is an accusation against the whole group rather than individual Muslim rapists."
How desperate and sad. How very desperate and sad.
After all of your bluff and bluster is that really it, son? Is that really all you have left?
I guess it is, having had a crash course in the facts and the realities.
Clearly, I haven't accused "the whole group" - muslims of anything; clearly, the official figures I provided you with show the percentage of serious crimes that the muslims are responsible for. 'The' in this case relates to the group, and the group in this case is muslims. Hence "the muslims."
But don't you find it shocking how less then 5% of a population - the muslims - can commit 68% of the rapes and half of all serious crime? Or how 3% of another countries population - the blacks - can be up for 80% of the gang rapes (a crime unheard of before they arrived) and 2/3rds of all the serious crimes?
Can you really not understand how that might concern people, and how facts are facts and the truth is the truth, not "racist"?
Come on now, son, be honest. Give a it a go,
Gert's basic education of the realities of race as evidenced by science.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"12 % of the DNA Differs Amongst Human Races and Populations: Till now, humans of different races were thought almost identical
The Human Genome Project found all humans to have a 99.9 % similar genetic content and identity, but this is challenged by a new more detailed research suggesting a higher genetic diversity, with further medical and evolutionary implications..."
http://news.softpedia.com/news/12-of-the-DNA-Differs-Amongst-Human-Races-and-Populations-40872.shtml
"The genetic makeup of the human race is much more varied than previously believed, new research shows.
Scientists say that surprisingly many large chunks of human DNA differ among individuals and ethnic groups..."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061122-human-genetics.html
"Geneticists are uncovering another level of human ethnic diversity: It may not be which genes we have so much as the way they behave that accounts for our differences. Using the International HapMap Project, which catalogs human gene variants across populations, University of Pennsylvania researchers Vivian Cheung and Richard Spielman first collected the gene sequences of a particular white blood cell from 82 Asians and 60 people of European descent. Then, using microarray chips, they measured expression levels of those genes.
What they found was surprising: Although which genes were present didn’t differ dramatically between the Asians and the Europeans, their expression did. And that expression was governed by single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)—one-letter changes in DNA—in nearby regulator regions that determine how much of a gene’s product is made. Overall, 25 percent of the genes seem to show different levels of expression in Asians versus Europeans, and SNPs in regulatory regions probably account for much of the difference. In the case of one gene, researchers found that Caucasians expressed it at 22 times the strength that Asians did."
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/may/is-there-a-genetic-basis-to-race-after-all
"There are racial and ethnic differences in Blood type and composition...
Publishing the ethnic differences in Blood type and the racial differences in Blood type is not, in the present-day world, considered to be politically correct. We compile and maintain this database through often times confidential sources. Every Blood gathering entity in the world must gather this information to stay in business, but almost every one of them is afraid to publish the racial and ethnic differences in Blood type, given the emotionally charged political climate."
http://www.bloodbook.com/world-abo.html
Sent:
The SNP research is interesting but proves very little with regards to the existence of distinct 'races'. It also says precious little about the past presumed 'superiority' of 'this race' over 'that race'.
Also, it's impossible to effectively separate the influences of genetic make-up and cultural factors (without extensive and cruel experimentation on humans). I'm afraid the identification of genes or SNPs that would explain your raping Muslims is a long way off and in all likelihood cultural factors play an important role.
Ideas about the 'innateness' (heritability) of certain very complex traits are very old and persist today and have indeed been used to justify some of the worst crimes. The advent of Darwinism, back then still only an embryonic version of today's Evolutionary Biology (EB), led to a flurry of activity and a revival of eugenicist 'theory'. In Britain in particular these ideas became briefly very popular: the writer H.G.Wells for instance was a staunch believer.
The Nazis too of course lapped it up with great gusto.
Despite these very simplistic interpretations of a theory that was still in its infancy and the misconceptions these yielded, the ideas never quite went away. Some British pedigree dog breeders still don't understand that they're extreme forms of 'trait enhancing breeding' can only lead to sterile, disease ridden dogs (beautiful to look at perhaps but walking genetic aberrations nonetheless).
The genes involved in complex traits are always multiple and their interactive expression is still very poorly understood: how do two, three or more genes express themselves to create a certain phenotype (i.e. the shape of one's nose or eyes)? Not well understood at all...
The part that SNPs play in all this is even less understood: we're talking here about very different levels of how the genome is interpreted by itself. Without understanding the 'lower' levels of expression, don't even begin to try and interpret SNPs.
"Gert's basic education of the realities of race as evidenced by science."
Don't make me laugh: to prove the existence of races you'd need to do a whole lot better than that...
"You also smeared me a "white supremacist" when I have NEVER proclaimed any such supremacy at all."
You imply it. You've had blog visitors from Vanguard (white supremacists if I've ever seen any) whom you saluted as 'Brother'.
"But that's not why you smeared me with your Marxist hate labels (labels that didn't exits until they invented them to divide people.)"
I told you over at Ren's that you consider all opposition to be 'Marxist'. You denied it but you're doing it again. It's a bizarre hallmark of the far Right that they consider all opposition to be 'Marxist'. Clearly they don't understand their perceived enemy (Marxist theory) very well...
OK, I'll do an encore.
"The SNP research is interesting but proves very little with regards to the existence of distinct 'races'..."
There are several research projects globally that have reached the same findings. It is the objective work of eminent and qualified scientists Gert, and not just the throwaway opinion of an unqualified, politically biased blogger.
The reason there is not more research into this field can be best be explained by the comments of bloodbook:
"Every Blood gathering entity in the world must gather this information to stay in business, but almost every one of them is afraid to publish the racial and ethnic differences in Blood type, given the emotionally charged political climate."
Scientist are afraid of political consequences to scientific research and findings.
It means they live in a tyranny, and that tyranny is PC.
"I'm afraid the identification of genes or SNPs that would explain your raping Muslims is a long way off and in all likelihood cultural factors play an important role"
Why are they my raping muslims?
I personally couldn't care less what drives them to do it, do it they do and leave they must. They are not compatible with western life and values.
On a subject close to your heart - homosexuality - and the muslims "cultural enrichment" to that, a Norwegian gay couple were harassed and one was beaten up in a "muslim neighbourhood" after being told that it it was a muslim area and not to hold hands.
This video below is an Oslo media report to it, the first minute or so in Norwegian but then it goes to English. See the trouble people like you are causing:
http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/08/19/nyheter/innenriks/vold/hatkriminalitet/7723180/
"The Nazis too of course lapped it up with great gusto."
That's it; make sure you get the Nazis linked in too for good measure. Pathetic.
"Despite these very simplistic interpretations of a theory..."
You really feel qualified to tell these objective scientist that their findings are "very simplistic"!!
"Without understanding the 'lower' levels of expression, don't even begin to try and interpret SNPs."
See above.
"Don't make me laugh: to prove the existence of races you'd need to do a whole lot better than that..."
I don't need to do anything. Objective scientific evidence is abundant above.
Your political prejudice and fanaticism prevents you from seeing it for it really is: Objective scientific confirmation of race.
"You imply it."
No, you infer it. A very different thing.
"You've had blog visitors from Vanguard (white supremacists if I've ever seen any) whom you saluted as 'Brother'"
My God - you really are a proper dishonest lefty aint you Gert?!
That is a bald face lie. A complete fabrication. I have never "saluted" anyone with "brother" in my blog, and I am hardly the habit of doing so in real life. And have I now idea about these "visitors from vanguard" you speak or even what vanguard is.
You, Gert, are a liar. Pure and simple.
"I told you over at Ren's that you consider all opposition to be 'Marxist'."
You didnt tell me anything; you don't have the authority mate.
I consider all PC and Marxist devices, labels, tactic and canards to be, funnily enough PC and Marxist.
"It's a bizarre hallmark of the far Right that they consider all opposition to be 'Marxist'."
So you keep saying with no proof at all. I, on the other hand, have posted detailed and evidenced articles into the matter.
But all in all Gert, I called you out for your credibility before - more in "anger" at your response about experiences that you say have never had and so couldn't possibly happen - but with that bizarre and complete lie above I now know that you truly are without credibility.
You need to lie in order to smear me because you have no evidence to back up the other smears.
You are a sad little dishonest man.
http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/08/19/nyheter/innenriks/vold/hatkriminalitet/7723180/
Sent:
"There are several research projects globally that have reached the same findings."
No one in that research concluded there were races. Higher than anticipated differences in SNPs doesn't equate to races or even imply it. Only in your minds does it do that.
" Scientist are afraid of political consequences to scientific research and findings."
Not the scientists that I know...
" I personally couldn't care less what drives them [Muslims] to do it, do it they do and leave they must. They are not compatible with western life and values."
If they're citizens or legal residents they must be accountable like anyone else, on an individual basis, case by case. Claiming 'Muslims must leave' is deeply racist. And pathetic...
"That's it; make sure you get the Nazis linked in too for good measure. Pathetic."
No linkage intended. It's a fact, the embryonic Darwinism fanned the flames of eugenics. The Nazis were all too keen to use this for political purposes. They believed after all in a Master Race, did they not? You claim to know Nazism well, why deny what I say? Some ID proponents in the US (like Ben Stein) tried to use the Nazi connection to discredit modern EB.
" "Without understanding the 'lower' levels of expression, don't even begin to try and interpret SNPs."
See above."
These papers make very littler interpretation of these SNP numbers, if any at all. Please explain what you think they read into their results.
" My God - you really are a proper dishonest lefty aint you Gert?!"
When your blog reopens, I'll search for the incident I'm referring to. Then of course you'll deny the visitor in question was a white supremacist. But he was. Unashamedly so...
"You are a sad little dishonest man."
For someone who whines a lot about ad hominem, you don't half resort to it a lot yourself.
"No one in that research concluded there were races..."
Yes they did. Clearly.
Higher than anticipated differences in SNPs doesn't equate to races or even imply it..."
Actually, it is a 12% CNV difference between the races and the SNP difference between the races is 30%, so far with this research.
Proves a lot. A hell of lot. Certainly proves that the political agenda ridden gnome project was a crock of shit and so were all the bullshit PC contentions that emanated from it.
But I will continue your education of the scientific evidence of race below.
"Not the scientists that I know"
A handful of scientists that you claim to know does not equate to the independent medical scientists who have clearly expressed thier opinion on the climate of fear.
And I don't believe you know any real scientists of any standing, importance or note anyway; you have proven that you are simply not to be believed on anything you say.
"If they're citizens or legal residents they must be accountable like anyone else, on an individual basis, case by case. Claiming 'Muslims must leave' is deeply racist. And pathetic..."
What? No comment on the muslim treatment of the practitioners of your other obsession - homosexuality?
Glad to see you haven't lost your one word judge labels. Without them you are nothing. But even on this you are completely wrong as Islam is a religion, not a race.
And without its practitioners Denmark would have 68% less rapes and 50% less serious crime as would many, many other western countries be much better off. Europeans owe them, or anyone else, nothing; if they want to practise their backward superstitions and behave the way they do they can go back to whence they came from.
God knows how many in the UK came as asylum seekers that can be sent back without questions, as virtually every asylum seeker in the UK is illegal, being bound to claim asylum in the first safe country they entered. As for the rest, the 1707 constitution Act of Union law defines who is British.
But either ways, I couldn't care less about your marxist hate labels and neither could increasing numbers of people. It will happen, but most likely a bit later after bloodshed, rather then sooner, down to fools like you.
"No linkage intended. It's a fact, the embryonic Darwinism fanned the flames of eugenics. The Nazis were all too keen to use this for political purposes. They believed after all in a Master Race, did they not? You claim to know Nazism well, why deny what I say?"
And here is the obligatory "do you deny" PC device.
You are linking Nazis to modern, objective independent scientists and thier findings and you know you are.
"These papers make very littler interpretation of these SNP numbers, if any at all. Please explain what you think they read into their results.
Below, and don't forget the 12% CNV again.
"When your blog reopens, I'll search for the incident I'm referring to. Then of course you'll deny the visitor in question was a white supremacist. But he was. Unashamedly so..."
That's not the issue and you damn well know. I don't delete comments so anyone can comment; from the far-left like you to the far-right like Cookie and everything in between. That they come is their own choice, as is what they say; not my responsibility.
The issue is the complete lie you tell in saying that I salute white supremacists with "brother" - it has never happened. It is just a pure invention by you. A lie. You are a liar.
"For someone who whines a lot about ad hominem, you don't half resort to it a lot yourself."
Just an accurate description of a liar. Someone who has to resort to lies to smear someone because all of the other smears have no evidence.
As for your comments and contentions and other lies, I have dealt with them in full.
Gerts continuing education of the realities of race as evidenced by science
-----------------------------------
I was just laying it out when I found someone else who has already laid out most of it for me, so here you go:
The biological basis of race
I know, I know… if you want to be one of the popular kids, you insist that everyone is equal, we all want the same things, and we all have inalienable rights and we’re all OK.
If you’re a realist, you know that people are different, have different abilities, and some are born bad and some are born good, and that all categories get fuzzy around the edges but still apply.
Then you run into the modern dogma that race is a “social construct,” or has no basis in biology. As you remember from biology class, your genotype or genetic makeup determines your phenotype or the traits that show up in you. Obviously, then, consistent differences between people have some root in genetics.
But thanks to those who want to be the popular kids, that’s not what you’re hearing from the multi-billion dollar media sources of your government and your mainstream media.
However, some information has sneaked through the cracks and so I’m compiling it here. The purpose of this post is not to affirm racism, superiority or inferiority, or any of that jazz; its only purpose is to point out that race does have a biological construct, and because all traits originate in genetic information, it’s insane to insist any consistent difference in appearance, behaviour or biological process has anything but a genetic basis.
Let’s begin.
Geneticists are uncovering another level of human ethnic diversity: It may not be which genes we have so much as the way they behave that accounts for our differences. Using the International HapMap Project, which catalogs human gene variants across populations, University of Pennsylvania researchers Vivian Cheung and Richard Spielman first collected the gene sequences of a particular white blood cell from 82 Asians and 60 people of European descent. Then, using microarray chips, they measured expression levels of those genes.
What they found was surprising: Although which genes were present didn’t differ dramatically between the Asians and the Europeans, their expression did. And that expression was governed by single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)—one-letter changes in DNA—in nearby regulator regions that determine how much of a gene’s product is made. Overall, 25 percent of the genes seem to show different levels of expression in Asians versus Europeans, and SNPs in regulatory regions probably account for much of the difference. In the case of one gene, researchers found that Caucasians expressed it at 22 times the strength that Asians did.
Discover Magazine
I quote this article first for two reasons: first, it shows the clear differences in genetics; second, it shows that we’re not looking for a race gene, or identical genetics; we’re looking for genetic coding that expresses what goes into the organism.
As the article points out, the differences weren’t dramatic — but they occurred in crucial areas, just like the difference between the computer code for a word processor and a database program is mostly the same, but has important details changed. It’s like saying to person A “Take ten of these red pills, and five of the green, after each meal” and to person B “Take five of these red pills, and ten of the green, before each meal” — small but vitally different instructions.
And lest you missed it:
25 percent of the genes seem to show different levels of expression in Asians versus Europeans.
One quarter of the instructions you give to person A and person B are substantially different, although both involve red pills and green pills.
Next up, a neat cascade by Steve Hsu, who fired off one of the more recent salvos in this fight by pointing out the obvious:
We were told long ago that there is no scientific basis for race. Yet, it would be surprising if the distribution of individual genes were the same in all ethnic groups, with their different evolutionary histories of the last tens of thousands of years. In fact, mtDNA tests can readily identify which of a few dozen matrilineal lines any modern human belongs to. Each of these lines can in turn be traced to certain geographical regions to which early humans migrated from Africa, and correspond reasonably well to conventional racial categories......
Your education continues here...
http://iluvsa.blogspot.com/2009/04/biological-basis-of-race.html
Sent:
Your view on this science is in part caricatural, as well as very pot and kettle.
It reminds me a lot American Conservative views on EB, these people believe EB is 'atheist' science, tailor-made to try and prove G-d doesn't exist. An atheist PC take-over of science, if you will. And politically motivated to drive G-d out of the American public sphere.
Let me see, when genetic research a long time ago determined that intra-group differences were often at the same level (and sometimes larger) as inter-group differences, thereby proving the concept of races is fundamentally flawed scientifically speaking, you dismissed it as 'PC science'. But you've no qualifications in this field to be able to speak with any authority.
Now other scientists have come up with larger inter-group differences based on SNP counts and... hops! With great enthusiasm you embrace the new results and claim the concept of race has now been proved.
My beef is not with the results: I'm not qualified enough to judge the quality of the research and so I'll accept the results at face value.
The beef I have is with your extremely hasty and self-serving conclusion. To actually prove the existence of races, these scientists will now have to endow their model with some explanatory power. Simply put, they will have to connect the observed different SNP counts with some traits that appear to distinguish the different groups scrutinised. If they can't do that, their research will have proved nothing except that there appear to be significant inter-group differences on SNP counts. It would be like developing a sub-theory of quantum mechanics but being unable to connect the numbers with real, useful and observable behaviour of quantum systems like atoms.
My guess is that they're looking at gene-pools: these certainly exist but are smaller than the past claimed races, less well-defined, very diffuse through constant influx and outflux. Their results may ultimately help explain the higher concentrations of certain genetic afflictions in this group or that group (but that's nothing previous ('PC') research hasn't already done - or is opposed to doing).
"Obviously, then, consistent differences between people have some root in genetics."
Yes and who denies that? 'The PC brigade'? No, they don't and neither do I, quite the opposite. But the problem of nurture v. nature doesn't go away. In principle everything is genetic, but the environment, education and culture (and other factors) have huge impacts that cannot be separated from the genetic influences.
And scientists should really concentrate first and foremost on better understanding expression of singular genes, as well as genes that appear to be 'working together'. Only then could any possibly meaningful definition of races in the genetic sense of the word really stand a chance.
The post I partially reproduced and linked to uses authoritative sourced evidence to prove that a link between the variance in SNP and CNV found is due to racial differences, as they have only been found to have such a dramatic variance over ethnic groups.
It is all there laid out in simple terms for you.
"...thereby proving the concept of races is fundamentally flawed scientifically speaking, you dismissed it as 'PC science..."
The gnome project presumably?
Its finding have already proven to be false and shoddy - but that fact isn't trumpeted from every roof top as its false and shoddy findings were. PC.
"But you've no qualifications in this field to be able to speak with any authority."
That's right; and I am not the one doing the research into this field and finding evidence that concludes race as a reality. Eminent, independent scientists are. But I can discuss their findings and conclusions.
"The beef I have is with your extremely hasty and self-serving conclusion"
And here we go again. Its not my conclusion (hasty, self-serving or otherwise) but the conclusion of the scientists who's work you already admit to accepting, because you are not qualified to do otherwise.
"My guess is that they're looking at gene-pools"
And your guess would be wrong. The research, even severely condensed into an article, clearly tells you that the research has been carried out over ethnic control groups - i.e races.
"Yes and who denies that? 'The PC brigade'? No, they don't and neither do I, quite the opposite."
Don't make me laugh. If some traits and differences are genetic, and are found in definable genetically different groups then the reality of race is accepted. The PC brigade do NOT accept this. Everyone is the same. Exactly the same. That is the general PC line.
"but the environment, education and culture (and other factors) have huge impacts that cannot be separated from the genetic influences."
So which is it that makes blacks commit the lions share of the worst crimes in the UK? Or the US? And if you were a victim of that crime would you really care anyway?
How about the muslims that exponentially commit the lions share of rapes in Scandinavia? And a lot of the serious crimes? Considering they are overwhelming from the same ethnic group, which is it in this case? And if they raped - or even more prevalently now - gang raped your daughter would you really care about the distinction?
I have given you plenty of material to educate yourself in the realities of race, if you can fight past your deeply ingrained political prejudice on the matter.
Here is a little bit on the subject, an article by a world renowned (and consequently world smeared) expert on the subject:
"Ever since the 1994 publication of The History and Geography of Human Genes by Stanford University geneticist Luigi Cavalli-Sforza, it has been possible to measure genetic distances between population groups in terms of family equivalents. Anthropologist Henry Harpending showed that against the background of worldwide genetic variance, the average similarity between people within a single population is the same as that between half-siblings. Political scientist Frank Salter calculated that compared to the Danes, any two random English people have a kinship of 1/32 of a cousin. Two English people become the equivalent of 3/8 of a cousin by comparison with people from the Near East, 1/2 cousin by comparison with people from India, half-siblings by comparison with people from China, and like full-siblings compared with people from sub-Saharan Africa.
Thus, the aggregate of genes people share with co-ethnics dwarfs those shared with extended families. Rather than being a poor relation of family nepotism, ethnic nepotism is virtually a proxy for it."
http://www.vdare.com/rushton/090820_ethnonationalism.htm
Sent:
Gene-pools run in the thousands, probably more depending on definition and required 'narrowness'.
Races were supposed to be very few (about 5 at one point) and very strictly defined. This is not what these scientists are finding at all.
As regards, 'everybody's the same', no one believes that. We're ALL different (genetically quite literally) but to find common traits that are shared by those from the same gene-pool, in particular complex 'bad traits', would be like looking for a needle in a massive hay stack. How to define 'criminal tendencies' for instance? How to correlate these 'criminal tendencies' with SNPs/CNVs? Impossible, IMHO. These scientists aren't about to even try it.
The SNP/CNV research may well be a real breakthrough but not for racial theory. These researchers would laugh at your interpretation. And folk like 'VDare.com' will do what they've always done: try and explain 'ethnonationalism'... Now with extra SNPs/CNVs!
Believe what you want, if it makes you happy....
"Races were supposed to be very few (about 5 at one point) and very strictly defined. This is not what these scientists are finding at all."
Well, they are! There are many sub-branches from the root, but the root remains the root and most of the reseach uses 4 ethnicities (races) as the control group.
You have misread.
"As regards, 'everybody's the same', no one believes that."
Really? Do you really want me to prove wrong yet again?
"How to define 'criminal tendencies' for instance?"
Simple really. By those who commit crimes; like rape, like murder, like serious violence.
"How to correlate these 'criminal tendencies' with SNPs/CNVs?"
We don't even need science to tell us which groups commit the exponantial lions share of the serious crime in the UK, US, and Scandanavia, just for example. We already know.
But sceince may yet tell us exactly why. But like I said, who cares, they do. If it was your daughter raped or gang raped I'm sure you wouldn't care less about this little academic irrelevancies.
"The SNP/CNV research may well be a real breakthrough but not for racial theory"
It has already proven its not theroy but fact. You cannot refute it.
"These researchers would laugh at your interpretation."
And here we go with your bizarre projectionist statements when proven wrong yet again - it THEIR interpretations of THEIR findings!!!! Good God man!! Have you read any of the reseach at all? Most likely not.
"And folk like 'VDare.com' will do what they've always done: try and explain 'ethnonationalism'... "
And here we go with your bizarre tactic of attacking a website rather then the facts — the article was not written by 'VDare.com' but by one of the world leading experts.
As you well, know, and can't refute hence the tactic.
Pathetic.
"Believe what you want, if it makes you happy...."
No, I leave that to you and the rest of the PC brigade. The scientific truth can be found just on the links I have provided: Race is real, it exists and science has proved it!
As I have said many times, every time we cross paths you are the rest of the PC junta are shot down in flames?
Not because I am a genius, but for the simple fact and reason that the truth is not on your side.
It simply isn't.
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